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	<title>Comments on: Vote &#8220;present.&#8221; It&#8217;s important.</title>
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	<description>Just another soapbox surfer</description>
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		<title>By: Acid Test &#187; My life in their claws</title>
		<link>http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/2008/10/vote-present-its-important/comment-page-1/#comment-25841</link>
		<dc:creator>Acid Test &#187; My life in their claws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 16:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/2008/10/vote-present-its-important/#comment-25841</guid>
		<description>[...] uncomfortable Hope(tm) feeling. They never did specify what they were hoping for. Turned out to be rather different from what I was hoping for. Now they&#8217;re going to reform health care from a Kafkaesque trap to . . . to what? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] uncomfortable Hope(tm) feeling. They never did specify what they were hoping for. Turned out to be rather different from what I was hoping for. Now they&#8217;re going to reform health care from a Kafkaesque trap to . . . to what? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Confluence</title>
		<link>http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/2008/10/vote-present-its-important/comment-page-1/#comment-25840</link>
		<dc:creator>The Confluence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 16:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/2008/10/vote-present-its-important/#comment-25840</guid>
		<description>[...] uncomfortable Hope(tm) feeling. They never did specify what they were hoping for. Turned out to be rather different from what I was hoping for. Now they&#8217;re going to reform health care from a Kafkaesque trap to . . . to what? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] uncomfortable Hope(tm) feeling. They never did specify what they were hoping for. Turned out to be rather different from what I was hoping for. Now they&#8217;re going to reform health care from a Kafkaesque trap to . . . to what? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Acid Test &#187; The right left</title>
		<link>http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/2008/10/vote-present-its-important/comment-page-1/#comment-25794</link>
		<dc:creator>Acid Test &#187; The right left</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 18:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Glenn Greenwald: quixote has been right all along. And also especially [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Glenn Greenwald: quixote has been right all along. And also especially [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brynn</title>
		<link>http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/2008/10/vote-present-its-important/comment-page-1/#comment-25712</link>
		<dc:creator>Brynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2008 01:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/2008/10/vote-present-its-important/#comment-25712</guid>
		<description>Paul Krugman has been named--by others and, humorously, by himself--as a likely treasury secretary under Obama. Speculation on the other side is that McCain would appoint Phil Gramm, advocate of further tax cuts for the wealthy and late of the McCain campaign due to his notorious comment, “Americans are whiners,” referring to the melt-down of the economy.

One of the reasons I prefer Obama over McCain is the people Obama turns to for advice and whom he&#039;d appoint in his cabinet if elected.

As for your question, “Why doesn’t Obama say it?” rather than Biden, it’s a campaign tactic, to try and minimize the negative messages the Republicans rely on. Look what Obama’s being subjected to even when he says nothing controversial! He&#039;s called a socialist because he wants to raise taxes on people making more than $250,000/year! Same-sex marriage is a hot button issue, even to some voters who are otherwise liberal. If Obama came out and said he was for it, the Republican’s would crucify him on the airways. And, sadly, sickeningly, that one issue could cost the Democrats the election. Jeeze, even the “liberal” state of California may pass the noxious Prop 8.

Like I said before, the Dems are running a very cautious campaign—to try to gain and hold on to the centrist swing votes. While I don&#039;t expect progressive government if they&#039;re elected, I do expect they&#039;ll govern more to the left than they campaign.

And FAR TO THE LEFT of what McCain/Palin would do. Which is key to my vote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul Krugman has been named&#8211;by others and, humorously, by himself&#8211;as a likely treasury secretary under Obama. Speculation on the other side is that McCain would appoint Phil Gramm, advocate of further tax cuts for the wealthy and late of the McCain campaign due to his notorious comment, “Americans are whiners,” referring to the melt-down of the economy.</p>
<p>One of the reasons I prefer Obama over McCain is the people Obama turns to for advice and whom he&#8217;d appoint in his cabinet if elected.</p>
<p>As for your question, “Why doesn’t Obama say it?” rather than Biden, it’s a campaign tactic, to try and minimize the negative messages the Republicans rely on. Look what Obama’s being subjected to even when he says nothing controversial! He&#8217;s called a socialist because he wants to raise taxes on people making more than $250,000/year! Same-sex marriage is a hot button issue, even to some voters who are otherwise liberal. If Obama came out and said he was for it, the Republican’s would crucify him on the airways. And, sadly, sickeningly, that one issue could cost the Democrats the election. Jeeze, even the “liberal” state of California may pass the noxious Prop 8.</p>
<p>Like I said before, the Dems are running a very cautious campaign—to try to gain and hold on to the centrist swing votes. While I don&#8217;t expect progressive government if they&#8217;re elected, I do expect they&#8217;ll govern more to the left than they campaign.</p>
<p>And FAR TO THE LEFT of what McCain/Palin would do. Which is key to my vote.</p>
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		<title>By: quixote</title>
		<link>http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/2008/10/vote-present-its-important/comment-page-1/#comment-25711</link>
		<dc:creator>quixote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/2008/10/vote-present-its-important/#comment-25711</guid>
		<description>Brynn- that&#039;s exactly the point I&#039;m trying to make.  Obama talks out of both sides of his mouth.  What is stopping &lt;b&gt;him&lt;/b&gt; from making a statement?  Why&#039;s he sending Biden to do it?  I think it&#039;s because he knows quite well that his statement would appear &quot;above the fold&quot; and everybody would know about.

I follow the news more closely than some people but not super closely, and I didn&#039;t even know Biden had said anything.  I had noticed that Obama hadn&#039;t.

And it&#039;s the same pattern everywhere, which is what makes me feel that he&#039;s putting all of us on in the worst way.

But I did hear one good thing yesterday.  Apparently he said he&#039;d have Paul Volcker and Paul Krugman in top economy / finance- related positions.  That seems too abstruse to be said purely for effect, and if he means it, then &lt;i&gt;great&lt;/i&gt;!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brynn- that&#8217;s exactly the point I&#8217;m trying to make.  Obama talks out of both sides of his mouth.  What is stopping <b>him</b> from making a statement?  Why&#8217;s he sending Biden to do it?  I think it&#8217;s because he knows quite well that his statement would appear &#8220;above the fold&#8221; and everybody would know about.</p>
<p>I follow the news more closely than some people but not super closely, and I didn&#8217;t even know Biden had said anything.  I had noticed that Obama hadn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>And it&#8217;s the same pattern everywhere, which is what makes me feel that he&#8217;s putting all of us on in the worst way.</p>
<p>But I did hear one good thing yesterday.  Apparently he said he&#8217;d have Paul Volcker and Paul Krugman in top economy / finance- related positions.  That seems too abstruse to be said purely for effect, and if he means it, then <i>great</i>!</p>
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		<title>By: Brynn</title>
		<link>http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/2008/10/vote-present-its-important/comment-page-1/#comment-25709</link>
		<dc:creator>Brynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 02:12:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/2008/10/vote-present-its-important/#comment-25709</guid>
		<description>Glad to help with the word-count! Here are a few more. ;-)

&lt;i&gt;just a small for instance, he hasn’t so much as nodded toward a “no” vote on California’s anti-gay Prop 8.&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s simply not true. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.noonprop8.com/articles/2008/10/20/biden-says-hed-oppose-calif-gay-marriage-ban/?source=google&amp;gclid=CI6IiZLmyJYCFQQCagodX302xw&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Biden, the other guy on Obama&#039;s ticket, has come right out and voice both their stands against 8.&lt;/a&gt;

Make no doubt about it: Obama and the Democrats are running a very conservative campaign, trying to appeal to the middle--which in this country, is pretty far to the right. They wouldn&#039;t have a chance at the WH, otherwise, running the first black man in history. 

The Republican party platform, on the other hand, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gop.com/2008Platform/Values.htm#6&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;supports an amendment to the US Constitution banning same-sex marriage.&lt;/a&gt; The Californian Republican party has allied itself with the Mormon Church, the Knights of Columbus, and other religious fanatics by coming out FOR Prop 8.

Obama taught constitutional law in college. He was a community organizer in poor, black neighborhoods. He and Biden both come from humble, poor origins. Those accomplishments are real, and, along with their words and other actions, indicate a progressive leaning. As a leftist, of course I would prefer someone much more progressive. But this country wouldn&#039;t put him or her in office. 

What has McCain ever done, but behave like Bush in college, wreck how many expensive American airplanes, drop bombs on North Vietnamese cities, and trade in his disfigured wife for a younger, much richer model? Oh, that&#039;s right: he survived a prisoner-of-war camp, to then go on and backtrack on his opposition to torture on a critical senate vote.

IMO, McPain/Palin are so dangerous to America--and to the rest of the world--that this is one of the most important elections in our country&#039;s history. I really wish you&#039;d take another open-minded look at Obama.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad to help with the word-count! Here are a few more. <img src='http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><i>just a small for instance, he hasn’t so much as nodded toward a “no” vote on California’s anti-gay Prop 8.</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s simply not true. <a href="http://www.noonprop8.com/articles/2008/10/20/biden-says-hed-oppose-calif-gay-marriage-ban/?source=google&amp;gclid=CI6IiZLmyJYCFQQCagodX302xw" rel="nofollow">Biden, the other guy on Obama&#8217;s ticket, has come right out and voice both their stands against 8.</a></p>
<p>Make no doubt about it: Obama and the Democrats are running a very conservative campaign, trying to appeal to the middle&#8211;which in this country, is pretty far to the right. They wouldn&#8217;t have a chance at the WH, otherwise, running the first black man in history. </p>
<p>The Republican party platform, on the other hand, <a href="http://www.gop.com/2008Platform/Values.htm#6" rel="nofollow">supports an amendment to the US Constitution banning same-sex marriage.</a> The Californian Republican party has allied itself with the Mormon Church, the Knights of Columbus, and other religious fanatics by coming out FOR Prop 8.</p>
<p>Obama taught constitutional law in college. He was a community organizer in poor, black neighborhoods. He and Biden both come from humble, poor origins. Those accomplishments are real, and, along with their words and other actions, indicate a progressive leaning. As a leftist, of course I would prefer someone much more progressive. But this country wouldn&#8217;t put him or her in office. </p>
<p>What has McCain ever done, but behave like Bush in college, wreck how many expensive American airplanes, drop bombs on North Vietnamese cities, and trade in his disfigured wife for a younger, much richer model? Oh, that&#8217;s right: he survived a prisoner-of-war camp, to then go on and backtrack on his opposition to torture on a critical senate vote.</p>
<p>IMO, McPain/Palin are so dangerous to America&#8211;and to the rest of the world&#8211;that this is one of the most important elections in our country&#8217;s history. I really wish you&#8217;d take another open-minded look at Obama.</p>
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		<title>By: quixote</title>
		<link>http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/2008/10/vote-present-its-important/comment-page-1/#comment-25708</link>
		<dc:creator>quixote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/2008/10/vote-present-its-important/#comment-25708</guid>
		<description>Brynn, I think that in one go you just evened up my comment word count compared to the hotter blogs out there! :D

If McCain/Palin had a Congress with a Brownback - Coburn type of majority, I&#039;d find them pretty scary.  A Democratic Congress, invertebrate as it is, won&#039;t be making it totally easy for them. Also, they say what they stand for.  They&#039;re not pretending to be the opposite of what they are.  So, no, they don&#039;t scare me.

What freaks me out so much about Obama is the total and glaring disjunction between what he says and what he does.  In my experience, people like that are very bad news.  He talks hope and change, meanwhile he&#039;s willing to use bigotry to the limit.  I mean, just a small for instance, he hasn&#039;t so much as nodded toward a &quot;no&quot; vote on California&#039;s anti-gay Prop 8.  But he calls himself a progressive.  I have 2 or 3 other posts about the disjunction, so I won&#039;t repeat the whole litany here.  It&#039;s the pathological level of the disconnect, way beyond the lying politicians I&#039;ve been used to, that bothers me so much.

Sure, he&#039;s a good speaker.  Sure, based on what he says, his tax plan is better than McCain&#039;s.  I don&#039;t see any evidence, not one shred, that you can go by anything he says, no matter how well he says it.

It&#039;s because I&#039;m hopelessly evidence-based that I think McCain is a bad politician, but letting Obama get near the White House could be a disaster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brynn, I think that in one go you just evened up my comment word count compared to the hotter blogs out there! <img src='http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>If McCain/Palin had a Congress with a Brownback &#8211; Coburn type of majority, I&#8217;d find them pretty scary.  A Democratic Congress, invertebrate as it is, won&#8217;t be making it totally easy for them. Also, they say what they stand for.  They&#8217;re not pretending to be the opposite of what they are.  So, no, they don&#8217;t scare me.</p>
<p>What freaks me out so much about Obama is the total and glaring disjunction between what he says and what he does.  In my experience, people like that are very bad news.  He talks hope and change, meanwhile he&#8217;s willing to use bigotry to the limit.  I mean, just a small for instance, he hasn&#8217;t so much as nodded toward a &#8220;no&#8221; vote on California&#8217;s anti-gay Prop 8.  But he calls himself a progressive.  I have 2 or 3 other posts about the disjunction, so I won&#8217;t repeat the whole litany here.  It&#8217;s the pathological level of the disconnect, way beyond the lying politicians I&#8217;ve been used to, that bothers me so much.</p>
<p>Sure, he&#8217;s a good speaker.  Sure, based on what he says, his tax plan is better than McCain&#8217;s.  I don&#8217;t see any evidence, not one shred, that you can go by anything he says, no matter how well he says it.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s because I&#8217;m hopelessly evidence-based that I think McCain is a bad politician, but letting Obama get near the White House could be a disaster.</p>
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		<title>By: brynn</title>
		<link>http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/2008/10/vote-present-its-important/comment-page-1/#comment-25706</link>
		<dc:creator>brynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 03:23:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.molvray.com/acid-test/2008/10/vote-present-its-important/#comment-25706</guid>
		<description>Wow. This post surprises me. 

You know that I started off very skeptical of Obama--and I still do NOT believe he&#039;s a savior. Far from it. But the more I&#039;ve found out about him--reading his interviews,seeing him in all three debates, watching respond to the ugliest campaign smears I&#039;ve ever seen in my lifetime, seeing how he interacts with people on the campaign trail and in his life, including his wife, grandmother and daughters--I&#039;ve come to regard him with more, not less, respect. 

The guy&#039;s smart! And what a relief that would be in the White House after 8 years of Bush. He&#039;s thoughtful and articulate--writes well, and is an amazing orator. He&#039;s able to inspire people--a valuable trait in the times ahead for this country, when citizens are going to be asked to pull together and sacrifice in order to repair the damages of the last 8 years.

More important, however, are Obama&#039;s policies vs. McCain&#039;s. Sure, Obama is a centrist, which disappoints me as an avid leftist. Like you, his vote on FISA infuriated me. I wish he and Biden would support same-sex marriage, as opposed to civil unions. But realistically, given how far to the right this country has moved, I&#039;m not going to get my sort of candidate.

On the other hand, independent reviewers have stated that Obama&#039;s tax plan is far better for the middle and lower classes than McCain&#039;s. And while Obama advocates more troops in Afghanistan--a policy I&#039;m dubious about--he had the wisdom and the courage to oppose the Iraq war long before most politicians, which makes me hopeful that he&#039;ll be willing to adjust his policy decisions, be flexible, and change if it becomes clear that things aren&#039;t working. 

Mainly, Obama seems inclined to surround himself with intelligent, highly educated, experienced advisors. McCain, on the other hand, seems inclined to go for lobbyists, NeoCons, and party hacks, like Karl Rove.

McCain, Palin and the Republican Party have morphed into the closest thing to a religious fascist movement I&#039;ve seen in this country. Have you watched the clips of their supporters? They are truly frightening, and the prospect of them being essentially in control makes me want to flee immediately back to Europe. No kidding.

McCain supports an amendment to the Constitution to ban same-sex marriage. He has said he would appoint anti-choice justices to the Supreme Court. He has surrounded himself by NeoCons who are itching to invade Iran. His healthcare plan, if passed, would degrade my healthcare plan, enrich insurance compaines, and cost me money, without necessarily providing healthcare to more Americans. He wants to give MORE tax cuts to the ultra wealthy. He has no plan to recover from the economic meltdown--he&#039;s even admitted he doesn&#039;t understand and is not interested in economics. And based on his past performance (Keating 5) he&#039;s not inclined to turn to wise people for advise. 

Palin believes in the Rapture, witchcraft, and that humans walked with dinosaurs. Do you want her a heartbeat away from the presidency? Like Bush, she has proven herself ready to use her office to benefit family and friends and punish enemies--imagine another 4 to 8 years of graft and nepotism in public agencies like FEMA. Palin has also proven herself ready and willing to lie outright when it benefits her. With McCain/Palin, expect more oil rigs off the California coast and in the Arctic wilderness, less environmental protections on wildlife, air and water, and a continuing lack of real alternative energy development.

You say you&#039;re not afraid of McCain--which, knowing how important science and reality-based policies are to you, I sincerely do not understand. I know you&#039;re disappointed that it&#039;s not Hillary running. But, feelings aside, voting for McCain and Palin or abstaining is voting for 4 to 8 more years of Bush and his sort of policies.  

Is that honestly what you want?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. This post surprises me. </p>
<p>You know that I started off very skeptical of Obama&#8211;and I still do NOT believe he&#8217;s a savior. Far from it. But the more I&#8217;ve found out about him&#8211;reading his interviews,seeing him in all three debates, watching respond to the ugliest campaign smears I&#8217;ve ever seen in my lifetime, seeing how he interacts with people on the campaign trail and in his life, including his wife, grandmother and daughters&#8211;I&#8217;ve come to regard him with more, not less, respect. </p>
<p>The guy&#8217;s smart! And what a relief that would be in the White House after 8 years of Bush. He&#8217;s thoughtful and articulate&#8211;writes well, and is an amazing orator. He&#8217;s able to inspire people&#8211;a valuable trait in the times ahead for this country, when citizens are going to be asked to pull together and sacrifice in order to repair the damages of the last 8 years.</p>
<p>More important, however, are Obama&#8217;s policies vs. McCain&#8217;s. Sure, Obama is a centrist, which disappoints me as an avid leftist. Like you, his vote on FISA infuriated me. I wish he and Biden would support same-sex marriage, as opposed to civil unions. But realistically, given how far to the right this country has moved, I&#8217;m not going to get my sort of candidate.</p>
<p>On the other hand, independent reviewers have stated that Obama&#8217;s tax plan is far better for the middle and lower classes than McCain&#8217;s. And while Obama advocates more troops in Afghanistan&#8211;a policy I&#8217;m dubious about&#8211;he had the wisdom and the courage to oppose the Iraq war long before most politicians, which makes me hopeful that he&#8217;ll be willing to adjust his policy decisions, be flexible, and change if it becomes clear that things aren&#8217;t working. </p>
<p>Mainly, Obama seems inclined to surround himself with intelligent, highly educated, experienced advisors. McCain, on the other hand, seems inclined to go for lobbyists, NeoCons, and party hacks, like Karl Rove.</p>
<p>McCain, Palin and the Republican Party have morphed into the closest thing to a religious fascist movement I&#8217;ve seen in this country. Have you watched the clips of their supporters? They are truly frightening, and the prospect of them being essentially in control makes me want to flee immediately back to Europe. No kidding.</p>
<p>McCain supports an amendment to the Constitution to ban same-sex marriage. He has said he would appoint anti-choice justices to the Supreme Court. He has surrounded himself by NeoCons who are itching to invade Iran. His healthcare plan, if passed, would degrade my healthcare plan, enrich insurance compaines, and cost me money, without necessarily providing healthcare to more Americans. He wants to give MORE tax cuts to the ultra wealthy. He has no plan to recover from the economic meltdown&#8211;he&#8217;s even admitted he doesn&#8217;t understand and is not interested in economics. And based on his past performance (Keating 5) he&#8217;s not inclined to turn to wise people for advise. </p>
<p>Palin believes in the Rapture, witchcraft, and that humans walked with dinosaurs. Do you want her a heartbeat away from the presidency? Like Bush, she has proven herself ready to use her office to benefit family and friends and punish enemies&#8211;imagine another 4 to 8 years of graft and nepotism in public agencies like FEMA. Palin has also proven herself ready and willing to lie outright when it benefits her. With McCain/Palin, expect more oil rigs off the California coast and in the Arctic wilderness, less environmental protections on wildlife, air and water, and a continuing lack of real alternative energy development.</p>
<p>You say you&#8217;re not afraid of McCain&#8211;which, knowing how important science and reality-based policies are to you, I sincerely do not understand. I know you&#8217;re disappointed that it&#8217;s not Hillary running. But, feelings aside, voting for McCain and Palin or abstaining is voting for 4 to 8 more years of Bush and his sort of policies.  </p>
<p>Is that honestly what you want?</p>
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